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Switch to Forum Live View Help needed with cash table play.
10 months ago  ::  19 Oct 16 09:25 AM #1
rod
Posts: 713
Date Joined: Apr 21, 2014
Status: Those who danced were thought to be quite insane, by those who couldn't hear the music.
Rank: Royal Flush
Ok I'm a tourney player trying to tackle cash tables.

I've not been playing much but my tourn stats are as per usual.
I'm up  about 50 buyins this month.



Tournaments usually about 20-35% ITM and ROI  30-150% each week/month/year.

I've only played 2,500 cash hands but I can't understand what's happening.
 This.


Plus this.


All my NLH tourney winnings have been lost at NLH cash tables.

My plo8 tourney winnings went to plo8 cash tables and I'm up about 30 cash buyins at plo8  from only half a dozen crazy sessions with some wild but friendly Russians.

At NLH, VP 55/40 Agtards seem to always have the nuts vs my strongest (must play vs agtards range) hands, my big pairs are running into sets at an alarming rate, my overpairs are meeting bigger overpairs and my sets are against bigger sets. Even my boats run into bigger boats. My bluffs get called and my calculated call-downs are just spew.

Leakbuster appears to say I'm playing ok as far as important frequencies go.
I know my vp pfr gap is too wide and I'm working on that but some games I had to try to induce a table full of nits to enter a pot. Picking up the blinds is great and I'm doing my fair share of stealing weak but doing that with premium hands seems so bad for full ring NO LIMIT.
My won when saw flop is ok but???????????

I'm usaully up near the end of my short sessions but like clockwork, as soon as I say to myself it's time to leave before the next blinds, I get coolered for most of my stack and I leave as planned but poorer.
Someone tell me it's  just variance.
My Roll would be twice it's current size if I had stuck to only playing tourneys.

DazedEmbarassed and confused.Surprised
GL to youze.Laughing



Never look down on anyone unless it's to help them back up.
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10 months ago  ::  19 Oct 16 11:01 AM #2
slim
Posts: 3,422
Date Joined: Jan 23, 2009
Rank: Royal Flush
VPIP 22.3%
PFR  9.68%

Look at the stats of the other players.
 You are using a hud which is great for cash tables and you should be able to pick up all the info you need from it just like you do when you play tournaments.

A good vpip/pfr- if your pfr is less than 70% of your vpip your likely calling in spots where you should be raising.

So for example if you had vpip 20 your pfr wouldnt want to be under 14.

Know your targets and it gets easy whom to 3 bet etc.

TAGS 22/18 -  ROCKS 7/5 - C STATS  34/5 - MANIACS 40-35

Also look for fold to 3 bet stats as you can often pick up some easy money on the right targets.

Keep plugging away the more hands you play the more stats you will pick up and you will soon know who calls all the way down who plays LAG etc etc.
If you are winning at plo8 stick at them and just play micro NLH to get a better feel for cash tables you will soon be building your B/R up just playing micro cash tables.

Im not the greatest player but have always found the micro cash tables an easy way to build a B/R up.

How many tables you playing?
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10 months ago  ::  21 Oct 16 04:13 AM #3
rod
Posts: 713
Date Joined: Apr 21, 2014
Status: Those who danced were thought to be quite insane, by those who couldn't hear the music.
Rank: Royal Flush
Cheers Slim.

Only 1table and very short sessions, like 9max sng about  1 hour. Been playing between and after tournaments.
I was thinking that 22/16 would be about my  comfort zone, even though I have gear changes to 50/40 and 10/5 at times in tourns.

I should stop tourney play for a few days to get my head fully into the cashy flow and have 2 tables up to stop playing hands due to boredom, lol. Been searching my archives for cash videos etc.
Will stay at 2/5 and 5/10 games until i get the hang of it.
Been into the blinds play stats too  much, stealing and defending.

I guess this makes for lots of tuff decisions if it's going to be played postflop all day..


Been playing around in there because of the more postflop play required.
  I had played some hands very badly but also had some very costly beats and neg variance in the first few short sessions.


Only had 3 tiny  sessions (info gathering) since writing the 1st post, above. They weren't great but luckier than the first lot.


My Daughter said play big games on the cash tables (you're a winner) Dad. LOL thanks Bub.
I said yeah but I could run KK into AA in the first hand and lose every cent I put up.
That could tilt me (lol who me? never) into playing extra poorly.

Originally I was going to play 2 to 4 tables and  3 to 4 hour sessions, I was thinking 800 to 1000 hands per day would quickly show if I could beat the micro cash tables but my 1st cashy hand (ESP) was QQ  into kk for a full stack gone and only 1 hand played.
Then had a savage bad run (Set over set etc..) which discouraged me to the point of starting this thread and re-studying cash play.

Gee it sux plugging away for an hour, then a new player sits in and doubles up within a few hands and leaves.


Thanks again Slim. I'll try some longer stronger sessions over the weekend and see how it goes.

OT
I saw Hu Lewis promoting some interesting software, I might have a better look at it but there's no trials just a 7 day money back guarantee.
Never look down on anyone unless it's to help them back up.
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10 months ago  ::  21 Oct 16 08:20 AM #4
wiggy
Posts: 10,097
Date Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Rank: Royal Flush
Not got a lot of time this morning, but I'll make a start

I would like to see your full cash table stats! vpip, pfr, etc as that would give a clearer overal picture, also actual starting hand stats! AA, AK, KQ, etc, but working with what we have here's some things to think about

Stats can be manipulated to mean whatever we want because all we have is raw data,so let's have a look at the sb stats

296 hands with a vpip of 32.8% and a pfr of 8.11%, this could mean you are unwilling to give up sb's when the price is cheap prefering to limp in and see what happens whatever you hold, or it could mean most of your playable opportunities are coming in early positions or you are putting pressure on the bb, one of those is good one of those is bad, your advantage is your hand replayer within the software or even the text history, use that to see exactly what you are doing in hands

Looking at the other position stats and where you make money is quite interesting! your button and cut off stats are good and will look after themselves although you need to work on your pfr, your cut off stats show you have taken some big hits in this position as your bb/100 stats show, even your ep stats aren't as bad as they look at first sight, mp and the blinds are where you need to be looking and I would start with "why don't your wtsd stats get progressively lower as you move further from the button"? this suggests you are unwilling to give up hands and is costing you big in mp

There's a lot more we can take from the stats we have but time is short this morning, I'll get back to this tonight m8

But gl and keep plugging away, you will get there eventually! just like I told you you would with your tournament play
I'm too old to die young
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10 months ago  ::  22 Oct 16 07:34 AM #5
rod
Posts: 713
Date Joined: Apr 21, 2014
Status: Those who danced were thought to be quite insane, by those who couldn't hear the music.
Rank: Royal Flush
Omg just disconnected at the end of a huge post dooooohhhh.

Don't have time to rewrite it all now grrrr.

Anyway thanks Slim that got me focused for a good session.

Thanks Wiggy for your help too.
I wouldn't  want you wasting your time on these stats as still making large adjustments.

Last few went ok.



These are from the last few games but I'm sure they are useless.
I'll have a few more thousand hands over the weekend to look at.



Ot but a bit of a lol.
I hadn't been to scope for a while and found these there yesterday in my achievement badges section.





Never look down on anyone unless it's to help them back up.
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10 months ago  ::  22 Oct 16 10:50 AM #6
rod
Posts: 713
Date Joined: Apr 21, 2014
Status: Those who danced were thought to be quite insane, by those who couldn't hear the music.
Rank: Royal Flush
Slim, Wiggy, sorry for that shallow post up there I was in a rush after losing the long  post.
I do very much appreciate your  time.

I'm looking into my cashy play now but I'm addicted? to tourneys  so might sign in very late just b4 cutoff in my Ozi game so I can stay focused on cash table mentality.. Then settle into a few hours at 5/10. If I can get right in the zone I'll try 2 tables.Foot in MouthEmbarassedLaughing

The plo8 cash tables don't have enough games going most of the times I look there and the players are often too strong.

Never look down on anyone unless it's to help them back up.
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10 months ago  ::  23 Oct 16 08:20 PM #7
rod
Posts: 713
Date Joined: Apr 21, 2014
Status: Those who danced were thought to be quite insane, by those who couldn't hear the music.
Rank: Royal Flush
Signed in super late placed 7th, grrrrrr.Frown

Wow I just put in a marathon (for me) session on this 5/10 table.
Had two going for a  while but dropped almost 2 full stacks $18.
I thought I better stick to one table and grind at least that $18 back.Cry

Reloaded and 6? hours later, I left.




I'm smashed it's 6 am here. I'll pop in soon with more details.
Gnight.Smile
Never look down on anyone unless it's to help them back up.
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10 months ago  ::  25 Oct 16 10:34 AM #8
rod
Posts: 713
Date Joined: Apr 21, 2014
Status: Those who danced were thought to be quite insane, by those who couldn't hear the music.
Rank: Royal Flush
Nobody ever told me cash tables were so tuff. How tuff? well I'm still worn out from it 2 days later.
I couldn't play a single hand or even study yesterday.

Today I still don't think I could play well at a cash table I'm so worn out. It's a long story, why that game could hammer me so much but I'll have to tell you later, I'm late for my Ozi tourney.

I loved most of the cash game tables and will be back at them soley tomorrow.
Still can't think straight, so mentally drained and tired but hope I'm ok for a tourney full of players I'm more familiar with.

B back with some cash table stats 2morrow. I hope.

Um are we supposed to stay at the table with 500 bbs?
That whacked me, I've never had 500 bbs.
Never look down on anyone unless it's to help them back up.
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10 months ago  ::  27 Oct 16 06:24 PM #9
rod
Posts: 713
Date Joined: Apr 21, 2014
Status: Those who danced were thought to be quite insane, by those who couldn't hear the music.
Rank: Royal Flush
Still haven't played enough hands, I'm getting over a savage flu.

Anyway here's the before and after.



I've played these sessions below since writing the first post.

Doh I did it again too, dropped 100bb in the first hour of both those last two sessions then spent two hours each time getting it back, DOH.



Table view.



All green this week I hope.


GL all.
Never look down on anyone unless it's to help them back up.
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10 months ago  ::  27 Oct 16 06:56 PM #10
slim
Posts: 3,422
Date Joined: Jan 23, 2009
Rank: Royal Flush
Keep at it the more hands you play the more you will meet the same players and know who you want to be in pots with.
It can be annoying when you get of to a bad start and its happened to me numerous times where you get it allin in good on turn and they call hitting there miracle. I played a short seesion yesterday and lost 2 buyins in 1st half hour 2 hours later i just broke even and that was a struggle. Some days your run like god others nothing will go right, no matter what you do, and thats the same in any format.
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