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Switch to Forum Live View set mine or isolate?
11 months ago  ::  24 Nov 16 07:47 PM #1
grumpy (got me vajazzle back)
Posts: 2,182
Date Joined: Jan 23, 2007
Status: sit and go whore
Rank: Royal Flush
#Game No : 967339575
***** 888poker Snap Poker Hand History for Game 967339575 *****
$0.02/$0.05 Blinds No Limit Holdem - ***
Table Norfolk 6 Max (Real Money)
Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 1: Sbielg ( $5.45 )
Seat 2: drainsteve ( $4.07 )
Seat 4: grump15 ( $5.73 )
Seat 6: Aress1 ( $5.05 )
Seat 7: buenosamigos ( $5 )
Seat 9: qbaq888 ( $11.13 )
drainsteve posts small blind [$0.02]
grump15 posts big blind [$0.05]
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to grump15 [ Ts, Tc ]
Aress1 raises [$0.13]
buenosamigos folds
qbaq888 folds
Sbielg folds
drainsteve calls [$0.11]
grump15 ????????????
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a pair of melons beats anything
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11 months ago  ::  25 Nov 16 03:52 AM #2
rod
Posts: 713
Date Joined: Apr 21, 2014
Status: Those who danced were thought to be quite insane, by those who couldn't hear the music.
Rank: Royal Flush
Fold?Wink
Never look down on anyone unless it's to help them back up.
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11 months ago  ::  25 Nov 16 04:39 AM #3
rod
Posts: 713
Date Joined: Apr 21, 2014
Status: Those who danced were thought to be quite insane, by those who couldn't hear the music.
Rank: Royal Flush
Lol just my recent memory bias. Last night in my National tourny.




If your TT is the first hand you have played vs these two villains, your next calculation could be chalk or cheese compared to if you know anything about their opening ranges, sizing and postflop frequencies from their positions vs the other two positions and specific opponents.

If you knew how they play strong, weak and busted holdings postflop the same applies, chalk or cheese.
In a vacuum with no information it depends if you want to gamble prefop, postflop or accept  0 EV for the rest of the hand and fold.

As meta-game?
To me that one spot,that one hand (no info) can go so many different ways before showdown that  Shoving, folding, flatting, min-raising it doesn't matter much to me.
 Then either way we move on to the next hand, hopefully JJ+ vs one limper or a completer from the small blind into our bb..

How would a perfect computer play it? I  don't think it would flat.


The stacks are big enough to mine against but it would also depend on  how often you think you can get paid well if you hit your set and it's not drawing to 1 card vs top set for a start. Fold? There are plenty of scary boards that unimproved 72 can and will bet at and get you (me) to fold TT often enough? fold? never mind the run outs. In vac Vs an EP openers likely range and a keen blind defender the TT is probably as good as 33 most off the time.
Who knows what reaction your iso bet might get too? You calling a shove or two there?
Gee am I getting nittier with age.

50/50? fold or isildurrr it and move on to the next hand.
I'm sure we see spots more long-term profitable than that, where holding 72 or even if fully blindfolded  from our own cards, are easier to play.

TT is like JJ usually a really tough hand to play deepstacked vs any action.


Never look down on anyone unless it's to help them back up.
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11 months ago  ::  25 Nov 16 11:10 AM #4
slim
Posts: 3,434
Date Joined: Jan 23, 2009
Rank: Royal Flush
Ok we are in the BB with a mid pair and we are facing a raise from UTG which is just over a min raise.
You ask the question to set mine or isolate, as the SB has come a long with his holding.
Well my answer would be what are you going to do if you do choose to re-raise and then the UTG player puts in a 4 bet.

So in the above situ the SB would more than likely have mucked but how do we feel about playing our 10s now, its very unlikely we are ahead and calling here now trying to set mine is losing play they say you hit a set every 7-1 times.  And  calling would be over 7bbs

So i think the way i would play it is put in the 8c with the other two players in the pot, you have great implied odds if you do hit the set and your hand is quite disguised as lots of players will have reraised it pre which will either take down a smallish pot pre or get you in a ugly situation as explained above.

I hope that is clear as have a lousy cold and headache.

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11 months ago  ::  25 Nov 16 07:18 PM #5
wiggy
Posts: 10,097
Date Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Rank: Royal Flush
Call for 8c and see a flop

There is already 31c in the pot so you're getting 4/1, the odds of hitting the set are around 7/1 as stated but I don't think you have a chance of isolating here, utg raised and the sb has called, what size bet are you going to have to make to isolate? and if utg really has something he's willing to play then he's going to price the sb in to make the call

I'm not sure if you have notes on these players or not so my reasoning is positional along these lines

utg has put in a pot sized raise, now there could be 2 reasons for this! 1 he has a real hand and is playing it and trying to build a good pot, 2 he has raised to try and fold players behind him and get position after the flop if the blinds come along with him, I sort of lean towards option 1 because he's playing a dangerous game if he's raising hoping not to be re-raised, but we all know that happens

The sb is getting 2/1 to make the call with any weak ace or marginal hand, but if he has a real hand you would expect him to isolate and force you out, his call suggests something he likes the look of not something he's confident of

Raising here could get you into a world of hurt, let's say you raise! if utg re-raises you are going to have to give TT up, and if he call's why would the sb fold now if he has something he's already called a raise with

I wouldn't be folding TT in this spot but I wouldn't be raising with it in this situation either, best to call and set mine
I'm too old to die young
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11 months ago  ::  26 Nov 16 11:19 AM #6
wiggy
Posts: 10,097
Date Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Rank: Royal Flush
Now I know this isn't Rod's thread! but there is a screen shot from him above which I don't understand the use of, from the post it would seem to be a reason not to set mine, but looking at the screen shot it's actually a fine example of overplaying AA

And as it's in this thread I'm going to address it in here (sorry Grumpy)

everything up to the C-bet on the turn is fine, but the opponents all-in shove means you have to fold, again we have no notes to work with so again this has to be situational analysis, we also have no stack sizes to work with to determine wheather we are now pot comitted, all we have is the action and the action screams FOLD

He's called a pre-flop raise so he has something he thinks plays well to a raise and can be digiused, but he hasn't re-raised which doesn't really scream KK-JJ, but at this point I wouldn't rule anything out and that leaves plenty of suited or connected cards and hands with a T

The flat call of the flop bet could mean a lot of things, he has suited hearts with the A, he has KQ, he has 78, he has the third T and is laying the trap hoping you bet the turn, or he has the str8 draw suited, he could also be a donk

I have no issue with the C-bet as it asks the question, but the reply is an all in which is more than double the current pot, and the size of that all in shows he's not comitted, now you seriously have an issue because he's saying he has you beat right here, or he's playing a stone cold bluff with a drawing hand for all of his chips, and I suspect a fair portion of your stack, and at this point you know the only hands you beat are the blufs and draws, if he's got a made hand you now need to draw to your outs and you only have 2 (4%) you can't hit a T because that could give him quads, so all you can hit is an A, even if the A makes his flush you have the FH

My theory regarding the situation? AA is just a pair, the TT on the board is an AA killer, and the size of the all in showing he wasn't comitted kind of rules out unmade drawing hands, he has something, he has us beat and we are drawing to 2 outs, bye bye AA into the muck with you




I'm too old to die young
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11 months ago  ::  26 Nov 16 10:02 PM #7
rod
Posts: 713
Date Joined: Apr 21, 2014
Status: Those who danced were thought to be quite insane, by those who couldn't hear the music.
Rank: Royal Flush
Wiggy you are absolutely correct.

I did tank for the whole timer  even though it's from my national tourn where I know most of the players so well that I rarely look at a hud for any deeper info.
This player and I, in fact most of that tourns regs level and sledge each other something kronic.
I went through everything you did in the post above and still believed  his range was heavilly loaded with a bluffing range.  It's not the first time I've had to play vs his and other ozi lunatics overpot shoves with air on  super wet boards. He has done exactly the same with a draw or pocket two's. I've bet into and shoved on him and others in similar spots with uniproved 72o on the bubble. We often show our bluffs too,, lol, I know.

If you look back through the ft thread you can see a short period where I was kind of dominating it and couldn't get anyone to give me big action. What did I do? I told them they all suck. Called them weak Girlymen etc.
 Like the Ukranians that team schooled me when I first played at the cash tables. I didn't back down I  bluffed 72 into the captain twice in a row and showed both then attacked them all for 6 hours until I got my two stacks back plus 3 more and eventually they leftand I was left sitting alone at that table waiting for some hu?.. It took a while but now I get all and more than the action in that ozi tourn that I need to feel alive or can always handle comfortably.
It culminated in these ozi guys team playing me night after night and trying to bluff me off almost every hand I palyed.

It sure is an interesting dynamic to play under now and it took me a few weeks to adjust at all because for a while someone shoved before showdowns 90% of the time I entered any pot.  I'm happy for them they now bluff at scare cards etc and look for other spots to gain value from nothing but they are much tougher to play against. I'm not safe even on the final table but it sure is active.
 Most of us (not quite all) get on well and respect each others game. Some of us go too far too often with the levelling but I'm sure we don't go that far in our other games..

I've snapp foldeed AAA in the same spot in other tourns and I reckon even a single Q on the flop can slow me down with AA in a 3bet pot.
======================

I bet $1 Grumps tried to iso and got stacked with those tens.Wink Fold?Surprised

One thing I've noticed from my few snap games is that the small blind almost never hangs around to try and outplay the BB with average holdings. Especialy if there has been action. I almost always wait due to that single observation.


Never look down on anyone unless it's to help them back up.
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10 months ago  ::  06 Dec 16 01:57 AM #8
rod
Posts: 713
Date Joined: Apr 21, 2014
Status: Those who danced were thought to be quite insane, by those who couldn't hear the music.
Rank: Royal Flush
Time for the spoiler Grumpy, what happened?Smile
Do I keep my $1?  It's got your name on it.Money Mouth

Gl Bud.
Never look down on anyone unless it's to help them back up.
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10 months ago  ::  06 Dec 16 08:11 PM #9
grumpy (got me vajazzle back)
Posts: 2,182
Date Joined: Jan 23, 2007
Status: sit and go whore
Rank: Royal Flush
#Game No : 967339575
***** 888poker Snap Poker Hand History for Game 967339575 *****
$0.02/$0.05 Blinds No Limit Holdem - *** 24 11 2016 19:37:48
Table Norfolk 6 Max (Real Money)
Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 1: Sbielg ( $5.45 )
Seat 2: drainsteve ( $4.07 )
Seat 4: grump15 ( $5.73 )
Seat 6: Aress1 ( $5.05 )
Seat 7: buenosamigos ( $5 )
Seat 9: qbaq888 ( $11.13 )
drainsteve posts small blind [$0.02]
grump15 posts big blind [$0.05]
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to grump15 [ Ts, Tc ]
Aress1 raises [$0.13]
buenosamigos folds
qbaq888 folds
Sbielg folds
drainsteve calls [$0.11]
grump15 raises [$0.47]
Aress1 raises [$0.94]
drainsteve calls [$0.94]
grump15 folds


is your $1 safe rod?

at this point i am still playing with my sit and go head on. cash is a totally different ball game . yes i could have called and when you see the flop i should have but poker hands are not played with hind sight. i try to play what is most profitable long term.  since this thread i have stopped issolating and started seeing cheep flops with lots of implied odds if i hit and this is turning out to be the best long term stratagey ( in my limited month and a half in this game)

** Dealing flop ** [ Td, 2d, 7s ]
drainsteve checks
Aress1 checks
** Dealing turn ** [ 9h ]
drainsteve bets [$3]
Aress1 calls [$3]
** Dealing river ** [ As ]
** Summary **
drainsteve shows [ 9d, 9c ]
Aress1 shows [ Kd, Kc ]
drainsteve collected [ $8.16 ]


so looking back i could have flat called and saw the flop with the outcome of winning the same amount but for lower risk
a pair of melons beats anything
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10 months ago  ::  07 Dec 16 11:42 AM #10
rod
Posts: 713
Date Joined: Apr 21, 2014
Status: Those who danced were thought to be quite insane, by those who couldn't hear the music.
Rank: Royal Flush
Oops looks like IOU $1 Grumps, ul on the fold m8.

Can't transfer $1, do you want to go double or nothing haha.


Throw another hand up? Guess how many fingers I'm holding up? Maybe a husng transfer?
Gl with your cash table quest too bud.

Cash is a different game alright. That's probably why average cash specialists suffer more the deeper they get in tourneys. They've got no ballz? Wink  We will both be smashing them soon enough champ.

Rock on.
Never look down on anyone unless it's to help them back up.
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